FORTH - PropForth on the Hive

prof_braino
Beiträge: 82
Registriert: Mi 4. Aug 2010, 03:39
Wohnort: Chicago

FORTH - PropForth on the Hive

Beitrag von prof_braino »

Hallo Alle

Sorry für die Verwendung von Google Translate, ich spreche kein Deutsch.

Ich bin auf das Team Portierung Forth für den Prop (PropForth http://code.google.com/p/propforth/ ) an den Hive-Plattform.

Wer Interesse an der Nutzung Forth auf dem Propeller kann mir bei Fragen zu kontaktieren ist. Mein langfristiges Ziel ist ein Zuhause-Schule Lehrplan für die Entwicklung von Embedded Systemen, so dass jede Frage ist ein großer Vorteil für mich.

Bitte postet in der englischen Forum oder Nachricht an mich. Wenn Sie in der deutschen Post auf den englischen Teil des Forums ich die Post durch Google Translate ausgeführt wird, funktioniert es gut genug, um das Gespräch zu beginnen. Ich werde nach Antworten in Englisch und mit dem Google-Übersetzung ins Deutsche.

Cheers!

braino
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Hi All

Sorry for using Google Translate, I don't speak German.

I am on the team porting Forth for the Prop (PropForth http://code.google.com/p/propforth/) to the Hive platform.

Anyone who is interested in using Forth on the propeller can contact me with questions. My long term goal is a home-schooling curriculum for embedded systems development, so every question is of great benefit to me.

Please post in the English forum or Message to me. If you post in German on the English section of the forum I will run the post through Google Translate, it works well enough to start the conversation. I will post replies in English and with the Google Translation to German.

Cheers!

braino

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BorgKönig
Beiträge: 598
Registriert: So 24. Mai 2009, 11:24

Re: FORTH - PropForth on the Hive

Beitrag von BorgKönig »

hello braino,

i think, your posting on "forth" will better placed it here. i have it here copiet:
prof_braino hat geschrieben: übersetzt mit google translate
Hallo Alle,

Ich habe gerade diesen Thread, ich werde versuchen, einige Informationen hinzufügen, aber wahrscheinlich mit Fehlern. Die Google-Übersetzung kann noch schlimmer machen. Cliffe Biffle gestoppt Veröffentlichung der Ergebnisse nach seinem ersten Beitrag im Jahr 2008. Pete Jakackie hat einige interessante Ideen, aber noch keine, die ich finden konnte, veröffentlicht. Sal Sanci entwickelt Spinforth mit dem Spin-ROM-Code, aber dieser erwies sich als zu langsam und nicht anders unsatifactory für seine NEDS. Sal entwickelt propforth erhielt aber keine Rückmeldung, und übernahm niemand interessiert war und nicht mehr veröffentlichen. Mein Beitrag war es, einen Code Walkthrough mit Sal Anfrage. Wir haben festgestellt, dass es einen Unterschied in der Hardware-EEPROM er conpared verwendet die von der Standardhardware, die in der saveforh Wort führte Absturz beim Schreiben ins EEPROM. Dies wurde korrigiert, und wir bemerkten eine Zunahme der Nutzer. Sal hat mich akzeptiert auf dem Entwicklungs-Team. Sal ist die Low-Level-Programmierung, kann ich die Prüfung und Releases. Mein Ziel ist es, eine kostengünstige erstellen, Stand-alone-Embedded-System-Entwicklungsumgebung (meine Kinder Robotik-Team). Ich habe das prop ausgewählten Hardware für verschiedene Gründe. Ich habe es jetzt seit propforth unterstützt wird, ausgewählt. Die Idee ist, Jupiter - Typ ACE-System läuft auf dem gleichen Gerät, das in der gewohnt haben Target Embedded Systems. Die propforth Kernel mit serieller Schnittstelle Benutzeroberfläche verwendet cog7 zu communicaqtions zwischen dem Benutzer und alle Rädchen läuft her 0-7 Griff. Die Kommunikation ist so dass cog7 kümmert sich nicht, wenn die cog7 ist auf dem lokalen Chip oder einem separaten Chip, so MULTIPROP Konfigurationen sollte einfach sein. Es ist ein Assembler, ein Disassembler, ein Debugger und ein Software-Logikanalysator in den einzelnen prop Standard-Paket, aber die Dokumentation noch nicht gründlich gerichtet. User Input wird gebeten. Die Low-Resolution-VGA-Text ist in der Beta, sondern ist als eine optionale Kernel-Erweiterung zur Verfügung gestellt. Über 32x15 Zeichen erwartet. Die Hallo-Resolution VGA Unterstützung für ein Standalone-System mit 128x64 Zeichen angezeigt benötigt den Großteil der Ressourcen eines Vorschlags. Derzeit ist die Anzeige zeigt die Interaktion mit cog 3 in der oberen Hälfte und in der cog3 Botom Hälfte von default. Seine cool zu sehen, beide Schnittstellen Betriebssysteme unabhängig voneinander auf der demselben Bildschirm. Sal hat Ethernet-Unterstützung, bu es ist noch nicht freigegeben in der Standard-Kernel. Es sollte bereit sein, für TH-Hive JupiterAce freizugeben. Der Plan ist es, Ideen aus colorforth leihen. Die Funktionalität wird in das Wörterbuch on the fly als geladen werden musste, und vergessen sein, wenn die Funktion Completes. Dies sollte immer der Kernel Footprint klein. Wenn dies gelingt, könnte das Hive-Konfiguration haben 1,5 extra Stützen beim Laufen Hive JupiterACE propforth. Die anschließende Plan ist es, die zusätzlichen Kerne für parallex verteilte Verarbeitung verwenden. Der Ausgangspunkt wird ähnlich sein wie Linda her http://www.ultratechnology.com/4thlinda.html und parallel her http://www.ultratechnology.com/4thpar.html # p4th. Aber dies ist abhängig vom Grad des Erfolges mit den aktuellen Projekten. Das Projekt ist offen für die Teilnahme an niemanden in irgendeiner Eigenschaft. Wir haben keine zweisprachig Deutsch - Englisch Mitglieder zu diesem Zeitpunkt.

english

Hi All

I just found this thread, I will try to add some information, but probably with errors. The google translation may make it worse. CLiffe Biffle stopped publishing results after his first post in 2008. Pete Jakackie has some interesting ideas but has not published any that I could find. Sal Sanci developed Spinforth using the ROM spin code but this proved to be too slow and otherwise unsatifactory for his neds. Sal developed propforth but recieved no feedback, and assumed no-one was interested, and stop publishing. My contribution was to request a code walkthrough with Sal. We determined that there was a hardware difference in the EEPROM he used conpared to the off the shelf hardware which resulted in the saveforh word crashing when writing to EEPROM. This was corrected, and we noticed an increase in users. Sal has accepted me on the development team. Sal does the low-level coding, I do the testing and releases. My goal is to create a low cost, stand-alone embedded system development environment (to team my kids robotics). I have selected the prop hardware for various reasons. I have selected propforth since it is now supported. The idea is to have Jupiter - ACE type system running on the same device that resided in the target embedded system. The propforth kernel with serial port user interface uses cog7 to handle communicaqtions between the user and any cog running forth 0-7. The communication is such that cog7 does not care if the cog7 is on the local chip or a separate chip, so multiprop configurations should be easy. There is an assembler, a disassembler, a debugger, and a software logic analyzer in the single prop default package, but the documentation has not be thoroughly addressed. User input is requested. The low-resolution vga text is in beta but is to be provided as an optional kernel extension. About 32x15 characters is expected. The Hi-Resolution VGA support required for a standalone system with 128x64 character displayed takes most of the resources of a prop. Currently, the display shows interaction with cog 3 in the top half and cog3 in the botom half by default. Its cool to see both interfaces operating independantly of each other on the same screen. Sal has ethernet support, bu it is not yet released in the standard kernel. It should be ready for th Hive-JupiterAce release. The plan is to borrow ideas from colorforth. Functionality will be loaded into the dictionary on the fly as needed, and be forgotten when the function comletes. This should keep the kernel footprint small. If successful, the Hive configuration could have 1.5 extra props when running Hive JupiterACE propforth. The subsequent plan is to use the extra cores for parallex distributed processing. The starting point will be similar to forth linda http://www.ultratechnology.com/4thlinda.html and parallel forth http://www.ultratechnology.com/4thpar.html#p4th. But this is dependant on the degree of success with the current projects. The project is open for participation to anyone in any capacity. We have no bi-lingual German - English members at this time.

I have to leave your contribution in origin subjects. please reply here in this topic to the text flow to not interfere. I will try to translate your contributions in German, to share with us your experiences.
---
ich habe deinen ursprungbeitrag im thema belassen. bitte antworte hier in diesem thema, um den textfluss nicht zu stören. ich werde versuchen, deine beiträge in deutsch zu übersetzen, um uns an deinem erlebnissen teilhaben zu lassen.
prof_braino
Beiträge: 82
Registriert: Mi 4. Aug 2010, 03:39
Wohnort: Chicago

Re: FORTH - PropForth on the Hive

Beitrag von prof_braino »

Hive 4 and Hive 60 are now complete. The PropForth Team has begun porting PropForth 3.4 to the Hive platform.

The standard PropForth kernel in current version can run on any Propeller chip, including Bellatrix, Regnatix, and Administra.

PropForth 3.4 for the Hive has been posted on PropForth Google code site at

http://propforth.googlecode.com/files/H ... rth3.4.zip

Hive Jupiter ACE PropForth is tailored to run on Bellatrix, and supports 1024x768 VGA and standard keyboard (no mouse yet, sorry).
The default configuration is COG7 manages communications (serial monitor), COG5 runs the serial port, COG4 is displayed on the top half of the VGA display, and COG3 is on the bottom half of the VGA display. HiResVGA supports 128 characters on 64 lines using 8x12 pixel font. Only a few colors are supported due to memory limitations.
Any set of (Bellatrix) COGs may be assigned to the VGA displays or serial port.

Upcoming features may include:
  • Low Res VGA (fewer characters, more colors)
    Ethernet (to display another FORTH prompt over ethernet using telnet)
    SD slot (low level support for FILES; extension will provide support for BLOCKS)
    Virtual (paged) memory manager
    TV
    Inter-cog communication (such that serial monitor or VGA can display COG from chips other than Bellatrix)
    Counter-based inter-cog communication (using 1 to 4 I/O ports per channel)
    distributed parallel processing support
Requests for drivers and functionality are being accepted. Post a request or PM me.

Anyone interested in coding, peer review, testing, or documentation is invited to participate.

Resistance is futile. :B4
stesch99
Beiträge: 27
Registriert: Mo 16. Nov 2009, 15:47

Re: FORTH - PropForth on the Hive

Beitrag von stesch99 »

Hello prof_braino!

Can you help me?

I have tested the Hive Jupiter ACE PropForth on my HIVE, but I have the problem
that I see on my vga-monitor the picture (see attachment):

I have tested all 3 resolution-variants in vga_hires_text.spin, but everywhere
the same result.

Seriell communication with terminal program works.

Best wishes from germany

Steffen
Dateianhänge
monitor.jpg
prof_braino
Beiträge: 82
Registriert: Mi 4. Aug 2010, 03:39
Wohnort: Chicago

Re: FORTH - PropForth on the Hive

Beitrag von prof_braino »

This is EXACT what you want to see at the end of STEP1. You are doing well.
(STEP1 is load HIVE Jupiter ACE Propforth .spin or on a demo board load Propfroth Hires VGA.spin)

STEP2 is:
a. from serial terminal start forth prompt
b. on Hive, load hiresvga20100912-0943 fix-hive.f, on DemoBoard load hiresvga20100912-0943 fix.f
c. From serial terminal, execute saveforth
d. see a bunch of dots .....................
e. type reboot or power cycle

STEP3:
there is no step 3. You have been assimilated. resistance is futile. :)
Zuletzt geändert von prof_braino am Mo 4. Okt 2010, 12:21, insgesamt 2-mal geändert.
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drohne235
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Re: FORTH - PropForth on the Hive

Beitrag von drohne235 »

http://hive-project.de/content/1840

Works very well! :twisted: I have the article in the blog updated.
"Ob Sie denken, dass Sie es können, oder ob Sie denken, dass Sie es nicht können - in beiden Fällen haben Sie recht." Henry Ford
prof_braino
Beiträge: 82
Registriert: Mi 4. Aug 2010, 03:39
Wohnort: Chicago

Re: FORTH - PropForth on the Hive

Beitrag von prof_braino »

All interested users:

Please submit lots of questions to me. The answer to each question create another piece of documentation.

Also, somebody please take a look at the google code site for propforth and let me know if the google translator works.

I tried to write in simple grammar with no colorful expressions, does it help?

Thanks in advance for your input!
stesch99
Beiträge: 27
Registriert: Mo 16. Nov 2009, 15:47

Re: FORTH - PropForth on the Hive

Beitrag von stesch99 »

Hi prof_braino!

I have done the steps from your last answer, but without positiv result.

- I started terminalprogram (I have tested Parallax Serial Terminal, Tera Term or Putty) with 57600, 8 , N, 1, no handshake
- I open hiresvga20100912-0943 fix-hive.f with a texteditor and marking all, the I use Windows copy and in terminal-program I do insert all
- after this I press Enter and put in "saveforth" and press Enter
- then I see more and more points
- if points stopped I put in "reboot" or make a hardware reboot
- but the result on my moonitor is the same as before

What can be not correct?

I use the Bellatrix-Chip. What is needed for the other 2 Propeller-Chips ? Must they be deactived?

I wondering also about the following effect:

In use the terminal-program with a key-response. I must give each
character very slowly. In other case I get a wrong response from propeller-forth. Maybe I write "reboot" and I get as response "reroot".

This effect I have with all 3 used terminal programs. Is this a known effect.

I hope that you can give me support to find whats wrong.

Best greetings from germany

from Steffen
prof_braino
Beiträge: 82
Registriert: Mi 4. Aug 2010, 03:39
Wohnort: Chicago

Re: FORTH - PropForth on the Hive

Beitrag von prof_braino »

stesch99 hat geschrieben:without positiv result.
Hi Steffen

- Tera Term 57600, 8 , N, 1, no handshake
- hiresvga20100912-0943 fix-hive.f marking all,

Did you include "fl" at the beginning of file? "fl" must be first thing, 'fastload' (see documentation page) must do pasted text or errors will occur

- after this I press Enter and put in "saveforth" and press Enter

ensure that no error "UNDEFINED WORD" message has occurred, it would be due to omission of "fl"

- then I see more and more points

each point is a 64 byte page written to EEPROM, this is correct operation

- if points stopped I put in "reboot" or make a hardware reboot
- but the result on my moonitor is the same as before

Something has gone wrong.
The SPIN program is correct and is using the Hive VGA pinout, as evidenced by the correct blue display with white garbage characters.

The Hive VGA forth code (hiresvga20100912-0943 fix-hive.f) has not loaded correctly on to the propforth kernel (and saved to EEPROM via the saveforth word). If it was me, it would be due to loading hiresvga20100912-0943 fix-hive.f onto the wrong prop, or using the hiresvga20100912-0943 fix.f for the demo board (both of which happened :) ). But you should not have had this chance if you use only Bella and only the HIVE zip download.

> other 2 Propeller-Chips
I put disable-led.spin on admin to see the heartbeat, and standard ethernet-regnatix.spin diagnostic on Reg for development. but propforth does not particularly mind as long as nobody is fighting for pins.

>I wondering also about the following effect: In use the terminal-program with a key-response. I must give each character very slowly.
This is not normal. If you can solve this issue, you should solve the others.

*** DO you have previous programs loaded on the other two Props? - trying disabling them during diagnostics
*** DO you have an old key board? Sal used an ancient one, but mine was a new model and had a cheaper clock circuit, we had to increase the time-out delay waiting for key codes, I was getting two incorrect characters "y" and "z" were swapped.
*** DO you have a very new fancy programmable keyboard from China? If it is too fancy and needs to talk to its driver? That is kind of stretching, but thats all I got right now.

>In other case I get a wrong response from propeller-forth. Maybe I write "reboot" and I get as response "reroot".
This is not expected. This is usually due to demonic possession possibly by ancient spirits from China, or there is noise on the serial line from other means. You could be ripping video on a slow machine, or too near heavy industrial equipment, or of course demonic possession. Swap the keyboard for an old standard model before you call a priest.

>This effect I have with all 3 used terminal programs. Is this a known effect.
Never seen before except in the case of demonic possession, which turned out to be a loose wire in the serial cable. (but the demonic possession story is much more interesting).

***** hiresvga20100912-0943 fix-hive.f dhould be loaded on BELLA (Hive VGA pinout)
***** hiresvga20100912-0943 fix.f should be loaded on Regnatix and Administra (standard version)

NOTE: code to access Hive hardware configuration on Regnatix and Administra is being developed, we will try to use Regnatix.f and Administra.f (forth code files) to add the functionality as FORTH extensions instead of kernel modifications, as possible.

drohne235 has had success. please see if he has any insight, it would be easier as he can answer in German. Do what he did if possible.

Otherwise, if you don't mind English, we can arrange time for a skype or google voice conversation. I can try to be available from around 12 noon to 15:00 Chicago time (CDT) on Sunday October 3. I get off the 9:00 am call for PropForth between 11:00 and noon.
Zuletzt geändert von prof_braino am Mo 4. Okt 2010, 12:35, insgesamt 2-mal geändert.
stesch99
Beiträge: 27
Registriert: Mo 16. Nov 2009, 15:47

Re: FORTH - PropForth on the Hive

Beitrag von stesch99 »

Hi prof_braino!

Thank you for your answers and informations to help me.
I think that I need some time to make tests and checking next days.
Thank you also for your offfer that I can phone with you via skype.

Today is a celebration day in germany (20 years of reunion from east and west germany) and we have sunshine outside so I want to go outside in the city and have some fun and also use the last beautiful days in autumn.

If I have new informations or results with propforth than I contact you again.

I wish you also a beautiful sunday and say thank you for your support.

Steffen from germany
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